camo

[Guest]

what is it with carp anglers ?i went over to olivers today for a few hours and it seems everything they have is camo even what they were smoking was green just what i look forward to when i go for a queit little session i could smell it from where i was fishing (not a good example to the young anglers is it?)

[dave]

were not all like that m8 i can assure u

dave

[madaboutsilurus]

in all my years of drug prevention and intervention work i put a lot of my success down to introducing kids into a sport where they can interact with what i used to describe as generally relaxed role models as part of my exit strategy. However i see more and more arguments against this and even lots of guys i think should be referred to my staff.

one of the examples i use now in training is a story about a guy who has a drink problem who we would try to give him an alternative and find that he goes fishing every friday and he and his mates all take enough booze and dope to sort out the whole group for the weekend but when they talk to their drug worker they are presenting it as an alternative to taking drugs.

any way i had a really amusing coversation with dave ball this afternoon when he phoned from half way up the Hymelayen mountains and was talking about a sieks place of pilgrimage being full of lovely carp. i was asking whether prologic do actually do a real tree camou turbon. we both found this quite amusing as we can just see it now all the pilgrims in their turbons and loin cloths blending in with all the guys in their prologic gear saying mate you cant pray there i have a bait down there.

[John]

I have encountered people smoking the stuff at ALL caps waters. I don't think it really matters, each to their own. Perhaps it was for a medical condition ???

[dave whittaker]

hold on pal dont tar all carp anglers with the same brush i have met guys who were chubbing having a puff also tench anglers so dont just think that because they are sitting behind some buzzers that they are carp anglers if it bothers you that much why not go round and have a word with them or call kim so he can get hold of a bailiff like me and i will go round and have a word with them

[TomB]

It’s practically legal now anyway, you see it everywhere. I was walking behind somebody who was having a puff in Colchester High Street last week, funnily enough, he wasn’t wearing camo, and I doubt he was a carp angler. Wake up, this is the 21st century..

[madaboutsilurus]

hi guys dont get side-tracked by my comments. they still stand but it means that i am not confident linking kids up to fishing clubs is not a safe way of ping them having access to gear. i am not setting out to peoples decisions. i am more interessted in ensuring that drugs dont take control of someones life and they are in control of their drug use regardless of the legal status.

a point of clarifcation though about cannabis is that it is now class c which means that anyone over 17 will not be introduced into the criminal justice system but anyone under 17 will, so there has been no change in law for juvenilles.

however i work in east london as the borough drug advisor and have had it up to my neck with conflicting messages. an example of this is when one of my schools contacted me to say that they have ten dealers identified in their school and the officer based full time in the school will not make any arrests to search down thier pants but will only search their pockets.

the lads that my staff have been able to work on are the ones giving the names, and the old bill are interperating the law clinically saying that he will only arrest if the teacher tells him the evidence that they have, this has to be done in the presence and hearing of the accused. the lads who are trying to give up are saying how can they all the time they have got people asking them if they want it at school.

any way i have told the chief inspector that the gear is being supplied at certain times a day at a certain place 150 yards away from an east london station and they are telling me it is not a priority so i have got to solve the problem with no help from plod and yet they are the ones that make this problem more problematic than it needs to be. the conflict is that on one hand you have old bill being clinical in their interpretation when it comes to kids using as it easy to ge a performance indicating arrest but when it comes to dealers they are saying we are not prioritising this. its crazy as the school will not exclude the kids that they find dealing as we know why they are and the money that can be used to try and bring about change is only available if they are arrested.

thats it from me on this one but dont get bogged down on whether there is a mellowed out guy sitting behind a reefer waiting for an alarm to sound. its only a problem if they fall in the lake.

[Big_Al]

Your lack of action stem to the fact that the government do not set targets or rate forces for drug detection.

All the figures run on volume crime, such as burglary, vehicle crime, violent crime.

Even though the need to feed drug habbits is often funded by the mentioned volume crime will not make it a priority as they do not get rated on it.

[dave whittaker]

for god's sake i know of two dealers who operate outside my daughters school,now the nor the school (who claim nothing is going on) will do anything about this ,its 2005 not 1950 if people want to have a toke then let them ,but if they are damageing fish because they are too stoned then that is the time to act .mind you what about people who get when they are fishing ??? i see that more than the odd dope head .something to think about

[dave]

tomb
it is not legal to smoke cannabis in an area where the public go or near children you can smoke it in your home but not in a public area
i agree with the geust that its not a good thing to see and smell gear at a lake i take my boy fishing everytime i go and i dont want to subject a 9 year old to that sort of behaviour
hey i was dragged up in the eightes and i have to admit i have had a smoke or 2 but it was allways in my room away from anyone who didnt allready smoke it
im a bit miffed at some of the comments on here its as if some of the people who reply actully aprove of it
the club has junior members and we must not seem to approve of of anything illegal
olivers is a busy lake and a lot of juniors fish there on their own (which gets my goat if im honest)and many of them walk around chatting to some of the older anglers and if they see an adult doing something they think its or ok to do it and as madabout has said drugs are so available now that it would be so easy to give it a go and from a little bit of brown it goes on to other more addictive and dangerous things
i know i have gone on a bit but i am a father of three and i never want my kids to start drugs im sure all good parents would agree with me

im tired now
dave

[dave whittaker]

dave i am a father of five mate ,i dont approve or dissaprove mate people should be more aware of juniors when haveing a smoke but the same goes with beer i had to wake up a guy at bov 2 last year who was wasted when his alarm woke me up took me two mins to get to his swim and anouther 2 to wake him .

[dave]

yes dave i agree we all have to be aware of juniors and the affects our behaviour has on them
i agree about your point on the beer issue i dont mind having a tin or two but going to extremes with any vice is a bad thing (except food i have that problem)

[TomB]

dave, I did not say it was legal, I said it was "practically legal," as it has been re-classified and downgraded and the law has more or less given up. As a parent myself, I agree with everything you say. I was really stating the obvious unescapable fact, that drug use is more prevailent than ever, and is due to become more so with the relaxation of the law. I'm afraid that it is a fact of life, and it is now part of modern society. Although I agree with your sentiments, your job in trying to screen your family from reality will become increasingly difficult with the passage of time. If you really want to shield your children from harmful influences, I'd cut out those family lunchtimes in the pub garden, the couple of glasses of wine with your meal or the tinnies in front of the footy on the T.V. Alcohol? Now that is a dangerous drug :wink:

[Dave Davies]

Old Lenny Middleton's got a lot to answer for, hasn't he?

If he hadn't invented the hair-rig, our lakes might be populated by people who were there to fish!

[madaboutsilurus]

actually mate the government have set targets for to stiffle the avialability of drugs and to reduce the number of people under 25 reporting the use of heroin and cocaine.

thats why they reclassified cannabis so the can use their time to allegedly target these drugs.

at no point in my comments did i pass judgement on anybody using drugs at a lake and i haven't differentiated from legal or illegal in terms of my comments about being in control of your drug use.

however, if i found that there were people being irresponsible with it round kids i would have something to say about it and often do.

i do think the hair rig was a great invention but dont think you can beat the buoy system at houchins and may give it a try with pop ups this season

[Big_Al]

When did the government set these targets then?

I have not heard anything about them at work.

I know they are bringing in powers to drug test people we bring through custody, to see if they are on drugs, but these are still limited to specific forces for trial.

[dave whittaker]

tom thats one drug i am trying to give up hic

[madaboutsilurus]

Hi Al these targets might be new to the as they were only set in 1995 and communication is not always good.

the powers to test people in custody also came in in 98. this allows us to use drug treatment and testing orders to help reiforce abstinence from drugs but we haven't got it sorted yet as courts are not up to speed with processing people that comply with their orders.

i think this proves my point at the most confusion about the reclasification of various drugs and government targets is amongst service managers who haven't communicated their local priorities to their officers.

anyway i am going to get of this thread now s others will get a bit frustrated as it is madabout on one again.

the target that i most important to me at he moment is ten cats out of houchins this year and i am not off the mark yet.

[Tim H]

This is a very interesting post.

Firstly the question of whether people want to be drugs users is, as many have said, entirely there own choice.
The question of whether they should be doing that on our waters should be of interest to all.
I had a conversation with a lad who was smoking the dreaded weed, there is now evidence that it is more harmful than first thought, at Olivers.
He was having a slow day and had enough 'gear' for probably half a dozen role ups. He was the only one on the lake.
I made the observation that should he smoke his joints as it was slow then get a take in the middle of the night come stumbling out.
The poor s*d who finds him face down in the water the following morning will not have a good time of it.
Then the adverse publicity is also not going to be good, for any of us.
When we can't fish at Prestons, Snake Pit etc etc.

Perhaps there should be some guidance from the club on this issue.

[madaboutsilurus]

I think you have an interesting and valid point which should not be restricted to specific drugs.

Could it be that you are implying that there be an expected code of conduct and responsible behaviour.

Who would be responsible enough to set the standard to be measured against, or should it be subjective interpretation dependant on the status of the person making the complaint.

The concerns that i have is the vast difference of opinions that i have encountered on this site and also the problems with peoples individual value base projecting things into what i have said that were inaccurate.

[Tim H]

The issue is perhaps a code of conduct on lakes,

We have problems just trying to get people to take their rubbish home and not being abusive to their fellow anglers. Let alone a code of conduct to do with drugs and alcohol. Both of which I feel should not be allowed around our waters for safetys sake. Fishing is after all the most dangerous water sport in the UK.

We ban tiger nuts and other baits and allow people to get drunk by the waters edge, is there something wrong with this picture.

Perhaps we should have as a base line observation of normal peramiters of social behaviour. You wouldnt get spaced out in Sainsbury's after all

[madaboutsilurus]

i would agree with code of conduct but the term wasted is very subjective.

How many people have had a drink or smoke before they go into the shop though. At what level do you deem then unworthy to be allowed in.

your opinion is that we shouldn't allow people to have drink or drugs on our waters. how many diabetics and epileptics do we ban then as they also have the potential to end up face down in the water.

As for tiger nut ban this is also beyond me.

[The Laird]

The committee has the power to control such behavior under General Rule 1a which states.

The Executive Committee has the right to refuse membership for any reason also to suspend or expel any member who fails to comply with Society Rules, or in their opinion acts in a manner prejudicial to the good name of the Society or the sport of angling. Anglers are expected to behave in a reasonable and responsible manner at all times.

I feel that if an angler is a danger to himself or others then the club should take steps to control this, although as I am no longer on the committee I cannot speak on their behalf.
I agree that this matter should be officially clarified by the committee.

[Tim H]

Well my point is to ask for the club to provide guidance.

I, for one, in my capacity as a constable will eject any one that I consider is acting in an inappropriately manner, in accordance with our own rules, thank you Kim

As for your jibe about diabetics or epileptics. We have no choice in our medical condition. I, as an insulin dependant diabetic, make the choice not to fish when not feeling well.

The difficulties with recreational intoxicants is that everything is ok unless things go wrong. It is for the club to ensure the well being of all that use our facilities, hence the inclusion of life preservers out our waters.

It is for the individuals to act reasonably, which if you are drunk or spaced out you often do not.

[Dave Davies]

I have to say that this has been the best debate on the forum for a long time.

Personally, I have always been in favour of an alcohol ban, but once again it would place bailiffs in an awkward position.

My earlier oblique comment about Lenny Middleton and the hair-rig reflected the fact that self-hooking rigs allow anglers to do things other than fishing while on the bank. Couple this with fact that many writers still talk about sharing numerous bottles of wine during an evening, and it becomes accepted to behave as you wish while on the bank.

Would there be any mileage in removing the unrestricted right to fish sessions of unlimited duration, or to introduce a night-fishing permit?
And do our constabulary friends have any views on unaccompanied jumiors fishing at night?

[dave whittaker]

dave i am not a cop never will be but as a bailiff i think all juniors under 18 should be with a senior member like a buddy system ,oh and ban all booze

[rangemaster]

i am 100% against alcohol on the bank at all times,after most people have to drive home the next morning ect.i think that juniors should be allowed to fish nights (being one myself) but maybe a permit could be a good idea.i dont think that i have behaved irresponsible or done anything intentionally to annoy other members.sure i might have bagged a swim someone else wants but that cant really count as its first come first serve.
the thing with juniors being with an over 18 means people like me cannot possible fish,as my parents dont fish and although i talk to other people on the bank and know a couple of people who i see here and there,i dont know them well enough to start fishing sessions with them.maybe juniors accompained by another junior at least when under 16 could be a good rule to bring in.i am 16 and i feel that im responsible enough to fish on my own at night although i have not yet done it.
i go to lakes to fish,and only to fish so i think that alcohol is not the place for fishing,i suspect that many members dont enjoy seeing other anglers wasted or there lights on lighting the lake till 2am.pubs are the places to drink not banks.

[dave]

good idea banning alcohol but then we must ban cannabis aswell
i like to have a beer when fishing but i dont get drunk so i am willing to give up one of my vices on the lakeside if it gets rid of the drugs as with junior members i have no problem with them night fishing as long as they dont have a gang of non members turning up on their bikes (which ive seen)and making loads of noise and messing about

[Guest]

good discussion
i have been watching this and i was glad to see some of the ex commitee members coming in with some good points lets hope i have somehow set things in motion which will put this anti social behaviour in the not allowed to part of the rule book

[rangemaster]

the problem is,why does the commitee need to ban cannabis?after all its illegal already

[crippo]

you dont need to ban anything !!!!!! only the people who abuse rules,make noises headlamps on all night etc but thats not only stoned or drunk people.I think we are now stereo typing the drugs which this was about with the people making all the noise and general bad behavior.I'm a bailiff and i like a drink so will i get ?Its in everything and anything that goes on there is always someone or somebody that ruins it for everyone else!!!!!!!!!

[dave whittaker]

the question is do people want to go fishing or do they want to go and get or stoned .now if they want to get and you damage a fish well stay down the pub ,if you want to get stoned stay at home or in your shed ,dont come over the lake and do it because some people dont know when to and a fish will get damaged.

[Holyjo]

Inthe end it seems to be fundamentally about whether one is a libertarian or an authoritarian at heart. I have chatted with many anglers who have had either a beer or a smoke or both and they were a pleasant to be with ,conversely I have chatted to blokes whose alternate words are f**k or c**t and whose views on race or other issues make me shudder. Could we ban people who have different habits,views lifestyles to others. I would hope not.


In the end the crucial issue should surely be the safety of the fish over everything else

[dave whittaker]

good words dave

[dave]

also we should be carefull around children and others that are easily led astray drugs are more harmfull to kids than to fish but i do see your point dave ball
in the end it comes down to using the appropriate behaviour when at the bank
dave

[The Laird]

I do not advocate the baning of Drinking etc however I think the club should make a stance on people who take it to an excess. I also agree with Dave that people should not skin up when there are juniors around.

[madaboutsilurus]

in terms of juniors fishing unaccompanied i think that we could be losing the plot. if you can get married and put a bun in the oven, i think you should be allowed to put a fish on a mat as long as you do it with minimal noise dusturbence and don't get cocky when us older folk have blanked.

in terms of banning drugs and drink.
i think the antisocial behaviour clause covers it sufficiently and would have no qualms about enforcing it myself if the club would guide how far they would back my actions.

in terms of banning the drink i am discusted that people think that they can dictate what i put in my coffee having already paid the duty and observed the antisocial behaviour clause.

I might be a bit paranoid but i think that our club has been infiltrated by the anti hunt brigade who are trying covert tactics.

[dave whittaker]

i dont give a monkeys what you put in your coffee ,but when it comes to fish welfare thats different :cry:

[madaboutsilurus]

This is my point. I don't expect any fish to be effected by whats in my coffee so i should not have that d. If the fish were effected by the amount of it that I had consumed this would be something that i do expect to be challenged about as this is irresponsible.

[dave]

i think we are getting away from the point here a bit
i understand the points about fish welfare but im thinking about the junior members im old enough to know but some junior members may not be

[Guest]

:wink: i think Kims earlier post covers this comment very well. anglers are expected to act in a reasonable and responsible manner. this therefore equates to not skinning up or getting drunk in front of juniors. but it might need spelling out a little bit clear to ensure that we are clear that members are expected to model a reasonable standard of behaviour in relation to the use of substances such as alcohol.

This would be sufficient implication that it covers illicit substances as well without advocating that it is ok to use it on the bank or elsewhere.

[Tim H]

Things have gone on a bit.

I have been fishing so havent been on here for a while, had some nice tench out of bovi 2 as well.

Every thing in moderation is perhaps a moto we should embrace.

Madabout is right in saying that something in the coffee to keep the cold out is not something we should set a rule about.

Puting yourself, others, the welfare of the fish we would like to catch and possibly the water we fish in, at risk because we want to act in an irresponsible manner is.

[The Laird]

There should be a committee meeting tomorrow night (28/4/5), so perhaps there may be some clarification afterwards regarding their position on this issue.

[ConTenDeR]

In my opinion, doing some night fishing with a mate and a crate of tinnys just feels like bliss. Especially when u get the bacon sarnies on.

Wud hate to see a ban because of a few ignorant people.